The Messiness in Avoiding Conflict Resolution with Marius Andrews

Welcome to the Gathering!

Have you ever wanted to sharpen your conflict resolution skills? 

Meet Marius Andrews as he discusses what causes conflicts and the steps to resolve conflicts.  Marius lives in South Africa where he is a certified counselor for youth, and mentors young adults. He is a life coach for adults and specializes in conflict resolution.  His life experience includes ministry, mission work, church planting, discipleship, and community outreach. You may reach out to Marius via email: mariusandrews@gmail.com or Whatsapp at +27 082 406 4635.

Transcript

UNKNOWN: 0:00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 0:08

Hello, my friends, and welcome to the gathering, Daughters of the Living King, where we seek to know and experience the love of Christ. I am your host, Judy Killebrew, and my experience and passion is in encouraging and empowering others in their walk of faith with our Lord. Hebrews 10.25 states, And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but encourage one another, especially now that the day of history return is drawing near. Hello, my friends. I am so happy. I have a wonderful guest, Marius Andrews, who is from South Africa, but mainly we are friends. We serve on YouVersion's leadership development team together, and he is just an awesome person. He's also a mentor and a coach and And he was a missionary. So there are just so many fabulous things that Marius has done with his life and continues to do. And so, Marius, we're going to be talking about the messiness in avoiding conflict resolution. And I want to welcome you to our show. Just whatever you want to tell us about yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25

Hi, Judy, and everybody that's listening. Thank you so much for the opportunity to be able to share on your podcast. I'm really excited about this. As Judy already mentioned, I'm from South Africa. I'm more in the southern part of the country. I'm living at the coast in a very small town called Great Brock River. It's a beautiful town, a big river flowing through it. So I'm really, I'm at my, I would always say my peak. My place where I just, I absolutely love it. I've got two daughters, Mariska, who's the oldest one, and then Michaela, she's the younger one. I absolutely love them. They are my, they really, they make my world. I really, truly love them. And then, one is 35, and the other one is 30 this year. So, I'm They've moved to the northern part of the country, so I truly miss them, actually, because I only see them about once a year. But when I see them, we have so much fun together. I grew up in a very conservative kind of Christian home. And after school, I decided to, because I'm a more passionate, out-of-the-box kind of person, And so I rejoined another church, a more Pentecostal kind of church, where I could live out the way I worship the Lord. And ever since, I'm still part of it. Ever since I was small, I always had this heart for people. And I remember when I was small, I always had this small little suitcase full of biblical chaps. And I always handed them out. I mean, I was like seven years old when I walked in the street. I didn't even exactly know what was happening, but I gave people chaps. And I remember the people always said this. young guy is going to end up in the mission field one day. And it did happen. I ended up in the mission field. I did some training and most of my mission work was in Southern Africa. I've done most of the countries in Southern Africa and also Madagascar. My heart was pioneering. So I plant church planting and then discipling. I truly love that very much. And out of that, the whole thing of youth developed because a lot of young outreaches Mission outages used to come in the shoulders of a lot of people. And for the last 20 plus years, 22 years, I've been full-time in youth ministry, where I do mentoring and coaching. Also, I'm a qualified career guidance counselor as well, where I help young people making their right choices in guidance in terms of careers. And yeah, I'm very passionate about that. And that's more or less in a nutshell what I'm doing. So I truly love what I'm doing. I'm passionate about the new generation coming up because I believe at some stage we're going to have to stand back and we're going to have to hand over the button and jump. So I'm very excited about that.

SPEAKER_01: 4:25

Thank you, Maurice. And yes, thinking about the generation coming up, oh my goodness, these are our future leaders. These are the leaders that Christ is raising up to be warriors for him. And when I think about this generation and I just wonder, do they know how to handle conflict resolution? Because that's something that's not really taught with our generation. It's not taught, really it's not taught in any of the schools. And if you don't have someone as a mentor that can help you through conflict resolution, we kind of tend to shy away from it, don't we? And so when I'm thinking about that and how you mentor these young people, tell me how do you guide them with conflict resolution? And I guess going back to the basic, what causes conflicts?

SPEAKER_00: 5:25

Judy, there's actually... I was thinking about it, and there's actually quite a long list, but I'll try and narrow it down. My main thing of approaching is I have the privilege of being part of youth centres. There's one in the village where I live, it's called Youth Cafes, where there's always young people and people that... They are taught a lot of different skills, life skills and everything. And they're coming and going. And I always have the exposure of working with them and even people that I mentor, because I'm not just mentioning people here in South Africa, people in Europe and all over South Africa that I mentor. So it's not just here. And the big thing that causes, I think to start off with, that causes conflict. And let me, can I just start with this? I personally believe there's nothing wrong with conflict. I actually think it's a beautiful thing because it causes us to grow. The main problem comes in when they don't know how to resolve the conflict or how to manage the conflict. That's where the thing is. So I just want to put that out there that I think conflict is a beautiful thing. And it will always happen. We can never get away from it because the moment two persons get into contact with one another, there will be conflict because of different backgrounds, different personalities, and all that kind of things. So, but yeah. One of the first things I want to mention about causes of conflict is intolerance. Especially now with the generation where we are now, the focus is so much on myself and the tolerance is just not there. I'm not just the young people all over the country. This morning, I was doing training on conflict resolution. That's one of the things that came up. And I could use our country as a great example. And it's unfortunate, but it's true. People are just stronger tolerating one another because of differences. So that's one of the things. And then poor communication, definitely. Or you can also say it's poor interpersonal skills where people don't know how to communicate with one another. And that's usually when I do training in conflict resolution, I start off a week prior to that where I train communication, different communication skills, and that leads into the whole, because if you don't have communication skills, then conflict resolution is a very difficult thing to work on. Another one is prejudice. That is also something that really causes causes conflict. And people just know that before I even speak to the people, I think I'm better than this person. I think this, and I think that, and especially if I can use our country again, as an example, in the past, things that happened in our country years ago. And unfortunately, some of that is still here. But just that, you know, before you even have actually learned to know the person, you already made yourself This is what I think of you. And then when it causes conflict, and then when a conflict resolution, you step in and you start doing it, you realize, oh my goodness, I was totally over the top here. So that's another one. Making assumptions. Oh my goodness. And that is... I remember I was in a situation with an organization. They're doing wonderful work in a town not far away from here, in a community, a very poor community. And there was a stage when some of the mentors that was facilitators as a part of this organization, there was just this assumptions that was made all the time. And I'm assuming this and I'm assuming that. And that's when I do communication training. I always say, make sure... what the person has said, have that, I would call it, reflective listening. Make sure you reflect what the other person was saying. Or there's another word some people talk about, active listening. I like the word reflective listening because you reflect on what the person was saying. And I mean, that in itself is a subject that I teach just a morning on, just on reflective listening. So make sure you know what the other person was saying by reflecting, say, is this what you say? I just want to confirm this. And then the person can, and then it's just such a beautiful thing. Even if you go into the process of conflict resolution, it's part of the active listening. Then another one is obviously personality conflicts, different people with different kinds of personalities. There was some stage where I made different personality analysis part of the training. This is the kind of personality that Marius has. This is the kind of personality that Julia has. This is why she reacts the way she reacts. And now Marius understands her better. So that's something that really causes conflict as well. Then, unfortunately, something else is self-interest. It's all about me, myself, and I. Actually, one of the youngsters this morning said, gave a perfect example of something that's in their family that's happening about this person. It's always about this uncle. It's always about him. It's always about self. And it's just not open for discussion and keeps on causing conflict. And unfortunately, there is times when it's just not working. And I think if I give a perfect example, that is where Paul and Barnabas had the disagreement about Mark. And I mean, what was so beautiful is Barnabas spent a whole year with Paul, training him and equipping him, and it was like life on life for a year long. And then, I mean, he was like the mentor for Paul. And then there came the stage where Mark did do some things that Paul didn't agree with, but he just said no. And their ways parted. The conflict was, that was conflict. And They could have both grown out of it, but they just decided their ways are going to part. So they do happen. You can go and read it in Acts where they talk about it. So unfortunately, that do happen. Then there's another one, lack of empathy. Not everybody has got empathy. This morning, there was this guy in the training session. He's got a very choleric personality. and his way of handling conflict is very direct and he's very he actually commits he says I don't have empathy for people and I mean that's sad to hear so that is really that's stressful as well because there's some of his interns that are such passionate people shy people and there's just no empathy and that causes conflict and the difficult to do conflict resolution so that's more or less in a nutshell there's so many other examples that I can give about different kinds of that causes conflict but I think the main thing is and I always say we must listen to understand and not listen to react and I think that's one big thing is that people talk to you and then you're already thinking in the back of your head oh this is how I'm going to react this is what I'm going to say when It's shorter than the person say, but you didn't listen to a word that I was saying. So I think it's important for us to really practice our listening skills. I think that's one of the main things.

SPEAKER_01: 13:15

I love that. And you know what, Maurice, when you were talking about reflective listening and active listening and just understanding what the other person is saying, sometimes I think, wow, It's not so much verbal communication these days. It's a lot of communication via text or email. And we can definitely get offended by what somebody has written and then go on a different tangent and be upset over something that was not intended at all.

SPEAKER_00: 13:52

Absolutely. Absolutely.

UNKNOWN: 13:55

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 13:56

What I wanted to add there, Judy, and that's one of the things, especially, again, with the younger generation, with social media nowadays, it's unbelievable how people will attack one another on social media nowadays. And I remember, I always use the example, I remember, and you will agree with me, when we were still young, you would not dare to look in your sister's little journal that she has. That was her little treasure. And oh my goodness, if you dare to do it, you will be on the red carpet with your dad. Now they blast all of that on social media. They attack one another. It's bullying everything. So it's not just conflict. It's just bullying. And unfortunately, yeah, that's the thing that is there. So I totally agree with you there.

SPEAKER_01: 14:45

Yes. And then I think of, what our God says. And in Proverbs 27, 17, he says, as iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. And so I take that verse as not only to encourage each other, but we should also not avoid conflict resolution and we should embrace it and try to get our differences settled and clarify the issue. And so when I'm thinking about that, Marius. What are some of the things we can do to solve

SPEAKER_00: 15:24

conflict? I want to quickly just jump in there. We will not be able to really stop conflict because conflict will be there. The thing is what we can do is to resolve that conflict. And I always say this basically, and I'm not going to go too deep into this, basically three steps that you can follow. And Tip number one, I call it self-check. Before you even go and sit down with that people, that's when, well, for instance, when I mediate, we are being a mediator when a mediator is called in. I say, listen, guys, even before I'm going to come here, each individual needs to go and do a self-check. You need to make sure that I will be emotionally ready for this. Am I willing to resolve this conflict? Because it's no use you come and sit there and have this discussion or this meeting to resolve it. but you don't want to be there. And I can give example on example of that. So you need to do that self-check, sort yourself out. If you are too angry or upset because of offense or something said, tell the other party, say, listen, give me maybe an hour or give me this afternoon or a day, but I just need to get myself together. But, and I always make this, but capital letters with exclamation. You cannot just say, give me some time to work this out. because then it's never going to happen. The other person needs to put down and say, listen, okay, but when? Will it be this afternoon? Will it be Thursday morning, or will it be next Wednesday? There needs to be a time limit and say, listen, okay, this is the time you're going to need, depending on the seriousness of it. And then there's three rules, we still have self-check, that you need to ask or commit yourself to before you go into this conflict resolution, step number two, is that you're going to tell yourself, I'm not going to fight and I'm not going to argue. Because conflict resolution is not about arguing or blaming or anything like that. We need to focus on the problem at hand. The next thing you need to ask yourself, will I be honest? It's no use you come there and you sugarcoat the situation or you're trying this. You need to be honest. This is what I experienced. This is what I felt. And then, Listen without interrupting. If you can't go in there, each person needs to tell their story. Once you've sorted that out and once you are sure, then you can say, okay, guys, I'm ready. Let's do it. And that's where step two comes in, which I call honest communication. This is where the actual conflict resolution is taking place. And this mainly, absolutely, this is when you need to practice your listening skills again. that reflective listening, that active listening. And as I said, we can stand still with that whole thing, how it's happened. And I always say, listen to what the other person is saying and then reply, okay, this is my experience. This is what I heard you saying. Make sure. And then I call it iMessages. When you go into this resolution, say, Judy, this is what I experienced. This is what I felt you were saying. Don't go in there and say, oh yeah, but that's what you said and that's what you said. No, because immediately you're putting that other person, you're making fire there and you're causing that. No, this is what you heard. Because many times that's not what the other person meant. It's just you misunderstood the thing. So if you come with I messages, this is what I experienced, this is what I felt. Then the other person say, but Maurice, that's not what I mean. That's not what I said. This is actually what I said. And sometimes the conflict is resolved right there. It doesn't even go to step three. It's resolved because it was not misunderstood. There was, I assume this is what you said. No, Maurice, you didn't listen. This is what I actually said. So use iMessages. Then the next thing is don't fall into the trap where you say, oh, who's right? Don't try and find out who's right. It's not about who's right and who's wrong in the situation. It's all about what is the situation that happened, what caused the situation. And then once that is sorted out, everybody said the same, you reacted on what I said and this, you said, everybody heard and everything was discussed. Then we get to step three, which is called the find a solution. And this is where you go and say, okay, what can each person do to improve the situation, the thing that caused this whole conflict. This is what Marius is going to do. This is what Judy is going to do. Then usually there's two or three solutions on the table. Then you brainstorm every solution and you find the one that's the most fairest. And then there needs to be a plan of action. And sometimes when it's a very serious thing where I need to mediate and it's not just between two people, I'll make sure there's a written plan of action. Okay? Because this is what Judy needs to do. This is what Morris needs to do. Everybody signs with that. And then when there is conflict again, you can always go back to it and say, okay, but Judy, you said this is going to be your part. Morris, you said, then you can't say no, but I never said, okay, but yes, you actually, this is a plan of action. And the plan of action just helps to always reflect that this is what I was talking. And then I say, evaluate that plan, make doubles for everybody I understand, and then implement it. Don't just... Had a lot of talk and we get up there and we walk away and we never do it. We need to improve. So to me, that is how, and I must tell you, Judy, I've done this with organizations. I remember there's a manager, he's a manager at an organization way before COVID even, that would be what, 2019. I've done some training there. And up until today, I had actually some, coffee with her the other day. She said, Maurice, I'm still using that whenever there's conflict in the organization, even when I go and do training. Those three steps. And she says it just works because it's not complex. It's plain and simple. Check yourself out. Get yourself ready. Listen, active your listening skills and then implement the plan and work with it. So that's how I would say to resolve the conflict, those steps.

SPEAKER_01: 21:55

That is so good. And from that, I have a few questions or just comments. But I was thinking how important our words are when we're with another person trying to resolve conflict. And an example that I thought of was I was in a meeting one time and I used the words, I might be able to do that. The other person took it, I would be able to do that. And assumed I was going to do it when I never said that. But that is what they heard. And so when we are talking about might and would and should and all these words, we have to clarify at the end of conversations. Now, what are we going to do to move forward? And just like you said, reflective listening or active listening. Let's clarify what was said in a conversation. Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00: 22:55

Absolutely. Absolutely. I always say, have the conversation. In Afrikaans, we say, have the conversation. So many times people come to me and say, but I've got to see you. And I refer them and I say, listen, it's no use. You just come and talk to me. Talk to the person. Have the conversation with that person. Even if you know that other person might be Very assertive because sometimes people are afraid of people that are very assertive. Have the conversation because that's the only way we're going to resolve it.

SPEAKER_01: 23:33

I agree.

SPEAKER_00: 23:35

I always say, listen, people, I think there's a reason why God gave us two ears and one mouth. We need to listen twice as much as we talk. And oh my goodness, how many people have the challenge of that. It is unbelievable. I love

SPEAKER_01: 23:52

that. You know what, Maurice? I was thinking that when we have the conversation, or even if we have a hard conversation, we need to pray beforehand. We need to make sure that we are going into this conversation, especially if it's hard, that we are prepared for it. If you're stressed out, you don't need to be having a conversation, especially a hard conversation, but we need to be prepared ourselves. before we go into any conversation for conflict resolution. And the verse that comes up to me is in 1 Corinthians 13, verses 4 through 7, where God talks about the fruits of the Spirit and how we're to have love. So I think it's so important to have love in our conversations, but especially in conflict resolution.

SPEAKER_00: 24:47

Yeah, absolutely. And if I can add to that, if you... Seeking God, that's what I always do. Seeking God first. In James 1 verse 5, it says, if any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God to give generosity to all without finding fault. And even while I'm in this conversation or this conversation, and then something comes up in myself, I just say, Holy Spirit, I trust you here. There's just no way I can do this. And without excuse, every time the Holy Spirit came through for me. And that's why I always, that James wants to seek wisdom from God. And I mean, he knows that other person. He knows what's going on in their head. So why not ask him? Why not ask the Holy Spirit to guide you through this process? And that's what I encourage the people. Sometimes it's unbelievers, so it's more difficult to help, to tell them to go and do that. But for myself, I always make sure then I do what James Wonders says, go and ask God for wisdom.

SPEAKER_01: 25:53

Yes, yes. And because this is a faith-based podcast, most of the listeners are Christians. And so my question to you, Marius, is when you have conflict and it's with someone that is of the world, and as a Christian, we're in the world but not of the world, But we have to have conversations with others, right? And some of our friends are non-Christians, and that's okay. But when those conflicts arise and the person we're having the conflict might be of the world and having their emotions come up, how do we handle that without our flesh being rising up too. How do we back away a little bit and give them space?

SPEAKER_00: 26:45

I think what comes to my mind the moment you said that is humility. But not false humility. It's that we really just take that one step back. And I believe it is in Proverbs 11 verse 2 where it says that we need to embrace humility. And if I can just quickly find it here, Proverbs 11.2, I just want to quote it quickly. It says, when pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom. And that's what I mean by saying, actually, I said it this morning again, it's so interesting that a lot of things that we talk about actually happened this morning in the training, is that, guys, let us be the bigger one. Let us be the one that say, okay, that person, comes from a place where they don't, first of all, they don't know about conflict resolution, and first of all, they don't have that grace that the Bible tells us to have. So let us be the bigger one. I'm not saying we give away our values or our standing in Christ, but Jesus, so many times, Jesus was just, look at him in the Pharisees. Yes, there was times when he was standing firm, but there was always this humility. So to answer your question, that's one of the main things I've experienced with non-believers is, guys, just take that step back and see where that person is coming from. That is so important because we must remember, and I said it now and I repeat myself, that person doesn't know. It doesn't give them the right to be like that. Let's not say that the action is wrong, but let's just And from there, trust the Holy Spirit, but do it from a place of humility, being the humble one, and say, okay, and with love, absolutely with love. So that's very important to me when it comes to the unbeliever. Meet them where they are in their journey in life. And so many times, you just win the person over. It's just that something in the spiritual realm just changes the way that person, That whole thing about don't pour fuel on the fire. That's exactly what's happening here. Don't give the enemy something to make this person to retaliate. Do it from a place of humility.

SPEAKER_01: 29:18

I love that, Mario. Such words of wisdom. And that's dealing with the Christian and then an unbeliever and conflict resolution, I also find that in the church, and the church is not the building, the church is us, and there is so many conflicts. And even as Christians, we don't want to sometimes have that mercy and grace for others. It's our way or we're just not going to be part of the project. How do we as brothers and sisters deal God says the harvest is full, and we've got to tackle these conflicts and move forward so that we can further the kingdom of God. Tell us, brothers and sisters, when there's conflict, what are we to do? How do we do it, Marius? I

SPEAKER_00: 30:09

was so hoping you would ask me that question, because the perfect scripture for that is in Matthew 18, verse 15, where it says, If your brother sins against you, and that can be if your brother is in conflict with you, and show him his fault, just between the two of you, stay away from gossiping, stay away from getting anybody else into the picture, because so many times, this conflict is reduced, and then we go and gossip. We as Christians, we as believers, and we go and gossip. I go and speak to somebody else, to John about it, and John go and speak to Mark about it, and back here, we resolve the conflict. But now John and Mark on the other side, they still know about, they don't know about the whole thing. And then this is exactly what's just between the two of you. And my Bible actually highlighted that just between the two of you. And only after that, then it continues to say, if he listens to you, because that's to me is conflict resolution. You spoke to him, you talked to him, this stuff that we were talking about, this is how the conversation. If you listen to anyone, then in verse 16 it says, but if you will not listen, take one or two along, then the matter may be established by a testimony of two or three of witnesses. And this is where I always say to people, this is where you bring in like a mediator. You bring in somebody else that can be more objective in this whole situation and guide you through this whole process. Okay, then the scripture goes on, if you refuse us to listen, then Tell the church, and if he still refuses, treat him as if he would be a pagan. So if people ask me that question, how should believers, I say, go and read Matthew 18, verse 16 to 17. That is what Jesus said. That's how we should do it. First, between the two of you. And I'm telling you, most of the time, that's where it stops. And once you bring your mediator, if you continue like in verse 16, then it's also resolved.

SPEAKER_01: 32:16

Praise God. And I have to tell you, Marius and our listeners, my next question was mediator and you just explained it. And so that was the Holy Spirit. And so thank you. And thank you for all of just your input. Marius, is there anything else you would like to add?

SPEAKER_00: 32:35

Yeah, I think, Judy, I've actually wrote it here in a little note when I made some notes to you. And I said it earlier on. and I wrote it in capital letters, all of it, is I just want to go back to it, to say, let's always go and meet the person where they are on their journey. Because every person, when there's conflict, is in a different journey in their life. Sometimes it's about emotional stress. Sometimes it's about stress in life in general. Always make sure, always us as the believer, let us be the bigger one. Let us be the one that says, okay, I'll be the listener here. I'll make sure my two ears are listening. And listen to understand and not to react. That whole thing about active listening and make sure you understand. Repeat back. And don't, I always say, don't you beat back the person's words exactly to them. Repeat back as you've heard it. Then that person can say, no, you know what, Maurice, you didn't listen. Or yes, then you can take it from there. So absolutely listen to understand. and not to. I see that written all over conflict resolution in big red and in bold. If that's what I can close off with, that's what I need.

SPEAKER_01: 33:53

So many great thoughts, so many great lessons, and so many great leadership nuggets, as well as just nuggets for conflict resolution. And Marius Andrews, thank you so much for being with us. And if somebody wanted to reach out to you, may I link your information at the end of this podcast?

SPEAKER_00: 34:15

Please. More than welcome. Please do so. They're most welcome to do that. I will do

SPEAKER_01: 34:20

that.

UNKNOWN: 34:21

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01: 34:22

So I usually ask whoever is the guest speaker if they would end us in prayer. So would you have the honor of doing that?

SPEAKER_00: 34:29

I would love to. I would love to do that. Father God, we come to you this afternoon and I ask, Lord, that you will just, for everybody that listens to this podcast, Lord, and maybe they themselves as persons are struggling with this, conflict Lord or they know of somebody maybe it's family maybe it's a colleague maybe it's a friend Lord that you in your biggest wisdom that you will just guide them in this whole journey in this whole process Lord you know that conflict is unavoidable conflict will be there it cannot as we say shy away from it will always be there but give us the godly wisdom Lord we need your godly wisdom and the only way we're going to find that is to spend time with you And let us as the church, as the body of Christ, as the believers, go out there and go make a difference and lead people and show them the grace that you've given us through Jesus Christ on how to resolve conflict in a biblical way. And the people will come back to us and say, wow, I just want to give a testimony of when I tried this and I tried that in the biblical way, how the conflict was resolved. I ask this and also Lord that you will bless each and everybody that's listening to this that they will walk away from the fast God not just because of me not because of me or Judy but because of the grace and the love that you have for us bless everybody I want to ask you that you'll bless Judy for hosting this podcast Lord that you'll in the future that you will give her the wisdom and the discernment and the understanding and with new ideas and new things to talk about Lord that you will bless her as well as a mother as a wife as a grandmother Lord bless her in every way of her life in Jesus name Amen

SPEAKER_01: 36:27

Amen thank you so much and I want to again thank you Marius for just sharing your expertise with all of us it means so much and it's so needed in today's world words are just powerful I thank you I just thank you for spending your time with us

SPEAKER_00: 36:47

once again And thank you so much for the opportunity. I totally appreciate it. And be blessed.

SPEAKER_01: 36:52

So friends, I hope to see you next time as we gather and experience a transformed life with the beauty of God's love. You can listen to this podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast fix. I would love for you to share this episode and follow the gathering so that you won't miss any episodes in the future. And I am so happy that you are with us on this podcast. journey.